Curse

zwei2stein · Feb 09, 2007, 04:11 PM // 16:11

95%? you need good group for more like of 60% of game, because some stuff is not "elite" it does not mean that it is trivial.

Why would anyone willingly put up with failure at worst or unncenesary deaths, slowdowns and stuff like failing bonus, when he can choose companions that ensure him flawess mission.

Simply said, i expect L20 character to know what he is clueless - either having standart build or build that is obviously not sucky.

Cass · Feb 09, 2007, 04:23 PM // 16:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

I actually wasnt trying to suggest that we dont comment on other team members builds at all. Its ok to ask someone what build they are, (i.e healer, or MM or nuker) and to then ask politely if they could be something else.

Aslong as we're polite and we dont kick someone simply because they cant, or wouldnt want to change. Especially in an area that isnt dependant on having the perfect team.

The game is about education and learning, it doesnt hurt to offer advice to a monk who might be shooting fire and saying "you might want to avoid high energy spells".

Aslong as you not rude about it and start spamming someone with "noob" and kick them.

That was part of my point.

That was at TheRaven too!

Having had the pleasure of pugging a bit again recently... here are my comments.

The game has developed with the new chapters, and when players need to progress their main characters through the latest campaign to get access to some area where an important elite skill is hidden, they want to make progress. It's become more of a long road to round a character out. It's fine to fumble around when you're killing time and have no real interest in progress, but fewer and fewer people are in that position (there is always the Xth pve char to get pvp-ready etc).

Yes, asking politely is nice. It doesn't help when PUGing though (neither does being rude, though). Fact is that the average player level in even the very last elonian missions is appaling. Mending + Healing hands Wammo's are STILL a common sight after almost 2 years and 3 chapters, and the worst thing is that those are often actually the more dependable members of the PUG. Most annoying though is the crappy attitude most players seem to have. When they hide their skillbar or ignore (polite) requests for changes to it. Their skillbar is sacred, no matter how inane, and suggesting a change is a personal insult. Impatience is also common. Rather than to discuss any sort of team setup, they do the "gogogo" thing. They're the first to rage when things go bad, usually when you still have a good chance to make it in the end. It'd be laughable if it weren't so sad. The level is such that a common mission in Kourna is a major hurdle... a far cry from a 'needs a perfect build area'.

Also, before someone comes in and yells of 'elitism'; there is no problem with a player willing to work with the team being a 'newb'. You can have 1K armor, only a minor vigor and no elites on your bar, and still be alright in the team. It's been a long time since I met someone like that though. Mostly it's walking disasters in 15K.

TheRaven · Feb 09, 2007, 04:34 PM // 16:34

LOL, you know this whole discussion reminds me of the experience my monk had at Fort Ranik. I've done the mission before many times with my Warrior, Ranger, Necro, etc, but this was the first time my monk was attempting it and I just needed to get thru the mission and onto more important areas of the game.

So my Level 11 monk arrives in town and starts typing....
"Monk LFG for mission"

A warrior joined me and immediately starts spamming....
"GO!!! GO!!!"
"Go already!!!!"
"Go!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
"Start the freaking mission!!!!!!!!"
I politely pointed out that we only had 2/4 people and I wasn't ready to go yet.
His response....
"Go already!!!!"
"Go!!!!!!!!"
"Stupid %^# noob!!!!!"
"Go!!! You don't need 4 people"
"Go you moron!!!"
"GoGOGOGOGOGOGOGOGOGOGOGOGOGO. YOU DON'T NEEED 4 MORE PEOPLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

You know. He was right. I kicked him and went and soloed the mission very easily.

SotiCoto · Feb 09, 2007, 04:37 PM // 16:37

Meh.... I don't bother with PuGs if I can help it.... I definitely don't go near anyone using ridiculous abbreviations.
If I see someone making a reasonably intelligent comment in the chat-window though I might approach them..... but its rare that I wouldn't rather do something with AI...

When it comes to teaming up with people however... The first thing I will typically admit (if I am taking that route) is that I'm A/Ning as a Pseudo-SS ... and if anyone has any problem with an Assassin playing Necro then they don't need to have anything to do with me. Some people don't mind, while other people do.... but I consider it polite at least to admit beforehand that I'm not doing things conventionally.... (and its just as well that some people can accept that an Assassin might actually be a competant SS-user). I certainly don't demand perfect groups in return. All I ask is that they accept me for whatever build I'm using, accept that my Heroes stick with me wherever I go (almost) .... and that they're at least competant at whatever they choose to do with their own character.

O'course if one of them is an SS Necro then I'll switch over to another build.... like ID+ or something more conventionally Assassin...

Grubcat · Feb 09, 2007, 04:46 PM // 16:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheRaven

I think you missed the OP's point. There is absolutely nothing wrong with a monk spamming Healing Breeze and mending or an Elementalist spamming Flare in the non-elite sections of the game. (The warrior aggro'ing everything is still unacceptable though).

When your Monk or Elementalist starts the game he has very few skills. Flare and Healing Breeze are included in the "starter skills" package and they are meant to be used in the starter areas. My monk has travelled as far as the Gates of Kryta mission and, yes, she has Healing Breeze on her skill bar. It works very well in these early missions. I'm sure that by the time I'm ready to take her into the fow or Thunderhead Keep, I will have replaced these skills with others, but for now I don't have any Elites and Healing Breeze is one of the best healing skills I own. BTW, my monk's second profession is Ele and flare also works very well against those Ice Golems.

The OP isn't arguing that these skills should be accepted in a FOW PUG, but really who cares what's on your skill bar at Fort Ranik?? Unless you're taking along some incompetent 8 year olds, you should be able to finish the mission with just about any build.

Excellent post, Raven, (and the OP)The poster following Ravens' post said they would instaragequit if they saw a monk using flare. Maybe that has happened to that monk a lot and no one bothered to say anything constructive so that's why he/she still uses flare. On the other hand, flare does work well in the beginning game, and as long as it works, why not use it?

Everyone has their own style of playing, and enjoying the game. Especially in the early parts, why not let them play what they are comfortable with? They will either improve and move to higher levels, and learn to adapt their builds to what is needed, or they won't. For me, I learn best when I experiment with skills and not when I'm told what I should be playing, with 5 new skills out of eight. And this is why I have not dared to try PvP yet! Working up my courage to get my feet wet.

PS. Raven- I seem to be following you around the forum today and admiring your well written posts.

Griff Mon · Feb 09, 2007, 04:55 PM // 16:55

Part of it is a desire to get masters on certain missions. People may have completed the mission several times but missed masters because of some shortcoming in the group.

I am doing a very specialized thing right now with one of my characters (going after the charr in pre-searing to get to level 16) and I need to go with a second person regardless until I can solo. I find that ele's, rangers, necros, and mesmers who are beyond level 10 do better here than another monk or a low level warrior. So I reject a lot of people who want to go with me because they don't have the ability (based on my experience) to be as successful. Much of the rejection comes from a desire to be successful on something that you have done before for a very specific goal.

Rodhin Kinning · Feb 09, 2007, 06:27 PM // 18:27

Hmm I remember a time when me and my guild was doing Ice Caves for arond the 5th time for someone new in the guild and we picked up a pug monk. Well partway into the mission I notice he is using flare, firestorm and a few other fire spells while our guildy monk was on TS and asking why he was running out of energy so fast trying to keep everyone up. I then responded "Well it looks like the other monk is an Ele atm." We didnt rage quit even with it very early on in the mission and ended up finishing the mission and bonus. Oh and so you know we was a balanced group with two real fire Ele's so there was little need for another.

After we finished the mission the pug monk left and sent me a pm (I was leader of the party for some reason.) saying we was the worse pug group he ever been in. I then replied he was the best healing monk I've seen in months and left it at that. And so you know he was advertising he was a heal monk. *chuckles*

But even after that I still like to bring Pugs if I'm able and help low level characters in all three chapters. I even try to politly suggest other skills if asked what a good build is for x class. And then again if I see a "strange" build I like to see how well it does before I judge it.

Matsumi · Feb 09, 2007, 07:19 PM // 19:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeanBB

Playing with guildies > PUGs, you can play whatever you want, generally speaking, and be accepted. Sure there are areas/missions where it is good to have a MM and perhaps 2 monks, but otherwise any combo works.

Not with the guild I'm in. For really simple areas with really simple objectives, even then, they want you to be on TS and know your exact build. For that reason, I don't really participate with their nightly objectives of either farming some boss or farming SF (yawn). I was in a guild before this one that turned from being somewhat active (and fun), into another stagnant serious farming guild.

I guess it's kind of hypocritical in a way, if I know my heroes have good builds to compensate the hench's crappy builds, then things run smoothly regardless of the situation. I don't require them to be on TS because I can control them, and there's no bickering or immature behavior to deal with ever. Maybe it's the constant bickering and bad behavior that bothers me then, I don't know. Along with the crappy not-so-serious builds that overwhelm the monks, and usually spell for party disaster. Afterwards, blaming the monks of course, even though I'm sure there's some really crappy monks as well. I'd rather just not hear it, or deal with it, when I'm trying to accomplish something really simple. Makes me want to eat my router or smash my monitor.

Randomway Ftw · Feb 09, 2007, 07:23 PM // 19:23

Wow, some of you get really defensive when your right to suck at the game is challenged, I don't PVE because of people who like to run stupid builds, how pve is generally boring and easy.

Flare is a horrible skill on its own, even when brought on an ele, the fact that people can, get away with it in PVE is evidence that most of PVE is incredibly mindless and easy. PVE being so easy for most of the game is what produces the arrogant type of noob, who thinks because he dominated most of PVE that he is 1337 at the game. e.g. a mending wammo.

Why would a monk take flare, and the big one, What advantage would a monk with fire magic have over an ele with fire magic? disadvantages?

If you can answer those questions you'll understand why its better for a monk to specialize in a monk attribute.

However sometimes there actualy is an advantage for another proffesion to specialize in another professions attributes, for example soul reaping, expertise, fast casting, and energy storage, leadership, mysticism.

wynoski · Feb 09, 2007, 07:24 PM // 19:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

I actually wasnt trying to suggest that we dont comment on other team members builds at all. Its ok to ask someone what build they are, (i.e healer, or MM or nuker) and to then ask politely if they could be something else.

Aslong as we're polite and we dont kick someone simply because they cant, or wouldnt want to change. Especially in an area that isnt dependant on having the perfect team.

The game is about education and learning, it doesnt hurt to offer advice to a monk who might be shooting fire and saying "you might want to avoid high energy spells".

Aslong as you not rude about it and start spamming someone with "noob" and kick them.

That was part of my point.

That was at TheRaven too!

I agree. Le't be more open. I don't usually PUG that often, but I was lamenting about the lack of smiting monks out there...smite hex packs quite a punch...at the same time, I had to take Meloni on a quest and there was lots of skale with rotting flesh...so I gave meloni Tainted flesh as her elite...Stupid? Noobish? Maybe, but we stopped rotting flesh and had a better time...

I hear people bad mouthing wiki builds, and wiki is a god send and a curse...I tried putting some of my builds up, but got flamed...seriously...can you beat all three games and have one prot title and your build be all that bad?

I am not l33t, never will be...

-forever a noob

Age · Feb 09, 2007, 07:43 PM // 19:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheRaven

I think you missed the OP's point. There is absolutely nothing wrong with a monk spamming Healing Breeze and mending or an Elementalist spamming Flare in the non-elite sections of the game. (The warrior aggro'ing everything is still unacceptable though).

When your Monk or Elementalist starts the game he has very few skills. Flare and Healing Breeze are included in the "starter skills" package and they are meant to be used in the starter areas. My monk has travelled as far as the Gates of Kryta mission and, yes, she has Healing Breeze on her skill bar. It works very well in these early missions. I'm sure that by the time I'm ready to take her into the fow or Thunderhead Keep, I will have replaced these skills with others, but for now I don't have any Elites and Healing Breeze is one of the best healing skills I own. BTW, my monk's second profession is Ele and flare also works very well against those Ice Golems.

The OP isn't arguing that these skills should be accepted in a FOW PUG, but really who cares what's on your skill bar at Fort Ranik?? Unless you're taking along some incompetent 8 year olds, you should be able to finish the mission with just about any build.

That is all you really need in Fort Ranik or any mission early on in game.You only need 3 to 4 skill around the Ascalon area as Monk they would be Orison.Healing Breeze,Restorelife and later Heal other or Mending other than Mending that is what is on Alesia's skill bar.You don't need a full skill bar up to you get to lvl 10 it is just learning the role you need to work on.In one of my post on PuGs I really would like to see what everyone would if Henchies and Heros were removed from the game for 1 week.Btw for the full entire game for those who like to use henchies you could use just a limited skill bar afterall it is what they use.Don't forget Henchies don't have runes and it is waste on heros.In reference to an elite area I would team up with someone I know or just get into a small group like a 4 person UW group.

TheRaven · Feb 09, 2007, 08:02 PM // 20:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Randomway Ftw

Why would a monk take flare, and the big one, What advantage would a monk with fire magic have over an ele with fire magic? disadvantages?

I believe I've answered these questions already.

Why should a monk take flare? Because I chose Elementalist as my secondary profession. Are you one of those folks that believe we should have only single profession characters? If not, then I think I'm entitled to use a few skills from my 2nd profession. During the early missions, there is very little healing for a monk to do. I suppose I could take smiting skills instead, but the fire spells are more efficient against ice monsters.

What advantage does a monk have over an Ele with fire? None. I never said she did. If I wanted to create an Ele I would have. I want a healing monk for the high level areas, but until I reach those areas I see nothing wrong with using my 2nd profession to get me there.

I believe strongly in adapting your build to the quest/mission. (I know, that's another thread) For my monk/ele this means using fire spells against ice monsters, smiting skills against undead and group healing in areas where it's needed.

LOL, you act like Flare is the only skill on my bar. It's not. I usually have a rez, 3 or 4 healing spells and a couple of smiting or fire spells. I have found that healing isn't needed much in the low level areas and most groups could do without a monk. Regardless, my monk still has to get thru these areas somehow so I prefer to pack her with useful skills.

Oh well, I have a feeling a mod is gonna close this soon anyways.

Str0b0 · Feb 09, 2007, 08:39 PM // 20:39

Simple answer there. Efficiency. Who wants to spend the time required to finish a mission only to have a good chance that they will fail because of substandard builds? I'd rather bank on a sure thing as opposed to someone's untested experimental build that they think might work. I have a limited amount of time to play and I don't want to waste it being frustrated by a substandard group that probably will fail the mission. It's much better to go with a sure thing.

gene terrodon · Feb 09, 2007, 08:50 PM // 20:50

PUGs aren't down simply because of heroes, although they are a factor.
There are many other factors involved.
These factors include solo farming, a diluted community, stronger guilds and alliances to name a few.
No one change/event has hurt the PUG, but a combination of changes and events have.
Of all of the changes made to GW during the year or so I have been playing, the only change that was a perceived boon to the PUG was the search party feature, and we all see how well that is being received.
Yet, there have been many changes to help move away from PUGs, from new skills, to ingenious solo builds to improved AI for henchmen (not heroes, but Devona and crew).

Yeah, the community may not be the most patient or friendly one, but the demanding group leaders and such are an exception and not the rule. In all of my time playing, I have run across very few groups that have wanted very specific builds for quests or missions, save elite areas or farming teams.

Just as much as any game change, forums such as this, with the myths of the ever aggroing wammo and the flare monk have ruined the PUG experience.
Stories are read, rehashed and told as new across countless forums and sites. These are stories that are embellished or fabricated. They are accepted as fact and everyone knows what happens from there. The worst thing about the forum influence is that the posters, typically are the same people over multiple sites and forums, and, they are a minority in the community, yet the majority reads the forums and takes the stories as fact, with no doubt. The community bases their reasoning on the notion that if they see it enough, if it is said enough times, that it must be true.

I remember one time I was refused a group because I was a wammo.
I am no fool, I do tank well and control aggro, yet I was subjected to "Leeroy Jenkins" jokes and mending references. I can't say without any doubt that the group lead was influence by a forum, but the stereotype applied to a wammo is the stuff of lore. You can't go to one fan site, without seeing disparaging remarks about them. This holds true for all types of builds and even entire professions (Mesmer or Assassin anyone?).

All in all, the PUG is fighting a losing battle. You cannot force people to play in a manner in which they wish not to. The only way for the PUG to be resurrected is for the community to do so. I don't see that happening and as such, I recommend, you get yourself aligned with a strong guild/alliance and/or start practicing with heroes.

wynoski · Feb 09, 2007, 09:19 PM // 21:19

every once and a while you just gotta pull a leroy!

That is what PUGs are all about...

Navaros · Feb 09, 2007, 09:23 PM // 21:23

No one expects PUGs to be "leet".

In my view the original post confuses "Expecting PUGs to be leet" with "Expecting PUGs to have skillbars and gameplay skills that are somewhat appropriate for any post-Presearing area" (which 99% of the time they don't, which is why no one PUGs

).

It's a perfectly reasonable expectation. Players with skillbars and gameplay skills appropriate to Presear should be honing all that in Presear, not out of Presear wasting the time of other players who play for success and/or Masters success.

holababe · Feb 09, 2007, 10:09 PM // 22:09

Yeah PUG's are not necessarily the way to go.

I henched Gate of Madness on my Paragon with 3 heroes (Dunkoro, Tahlkora, Koss) and 4 henchmen (Gehraz, Sogolon, Mhenlo and the other monk). I got Expert's Reward and I felt pretty good about myself afterwards!!

the_jos · Feb 10, 2007, 01:44 AM // 01:44

Quote:

To the PUG creatures out there, who always aim for the "best of the best" regardless of the task, explain to me why its more important to have a top-notch group as apose to just getting a group of people together to have fun?

In the lower level area's I see nothing wrong with that.
In the higher level area's (prophecies after droks) I would like my team to be at least 5/8 (or better 6/8) 'standard' type players (guild as exception).
That means playing primary profession with secondary to support that.
I don't consider these area's 1337, but I know that many people consider finishing a mission as fun. Failing is not fun.
When I team up and see an unusual build, I just ask why someone runs it.
Most of the time, that's when someone runs 4 attribute lines along 2 professions.

I've seen groups with decent builds fail missions like THK (they could not play the build) and groups with not that great builds finish because they knew how to play.
The 6/8 is to make sure the team can finish when things don't work out as planned. That could be one of the non-standard builds, but can also be a standard build that is played wrong.

The profession that I 'require' to have decent builds is monk (when asking for heal/protect, smite may do whatever he/she likes).
That's because a lot of players don't take self healing skills and many teams therefore depends heavily on the monk(s).
This is not the monk's fault, but unfortunately one of the more problematic things with PuGs.

My guild was running Deep tonight with a couple of PuG members.
One was the BiP. Never played BiP before, but we decided to take him with us (alliance member). Till over 3/4 of the run, the team received only a few BiPs, he just did not get it. But when we arrived at the finall boss, he seemed to have adapted, I (monk) received several BiPs and so did several others.
This time it was the shivers that was missing (the SS/shivers, also random pick-up, was doing a great job with BR through the mission to compensate the BiP, but he failed here at the boss). We talked it over, he put shivers on the bosss and we got the greens (that is, some other group members did).

People can put together the build, but not know how to play it.
But it's easier to explain what they should do (we found out that our BiP thougt it was for healing, not energy) than that you have to figure out how to get a very unusual build to work.

I think there are two main types of people demanding the 'perfect' team.
1. People that want to finish a.s.a.p.
2. People that don't know much about professions except those 'perfect' builds. Or do know others excist, but dare not use/invite them because they will get the blame when things go wrong.

The first needs the cookiecutter, the second could take an other approach and learn that failure is not that bad. Or other builds also work out fine.

More Outrage · Feb 10, 2007, 01:52 AM // 01:52

This thread just remided me of partly why I gave up PUGing as much as I used to. Hell I can hero/hench my way through the chapters and usually without a full squad meaning I can add one or two usefull/useless pick ups on the way if I want, which is very rare.

But I have to go with the excellent quote below.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyrnne

I'm a grumpy old man who doesn't want to hear a 15 year old lecture on how important the skill "inspired hex" is to the mission

GourangaPizza · Feb 10, 2007, 02:05 AM // 02:05

It's not a matter of l33tness, but the amount of common sense that is present in the party member. If your party member couldn't bother to think twice before equipping with some hogwash skills, perhaps more people will drop the so-called "l33t" attitude. There's been alot of times I joined a party with no form of support healers, unless you count in the 2 wammos who volunteer to act as monk. For your information, all these occurences happened in late-game areas like Southern Shiverpeak missions. Which is no surprise why people go hench-way rather than PUG-way. I PUG only when I feel like having an element of surprise, otherwise a definite no-no.